Read the scripture then read the conversation about how evolution or creation to understand why there can be no compromise it leads to what was in the heart of lucifer and his decenent to the earth and the need for christ  .



Chapter 28

1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.




Isaiah 14:1-20 King James Version (KJV)

14 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

5 The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Genesis 3 King James Version (KJV)

3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Revelation 12 King James Version (KJV)

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.






Again, you start making all sorts of different claims which confuse the discussion. Please stop doing that. As I said before, I am not going to discuss several different things at the same time. I tried to do this, but what happened was that you started to ignore the original topic. In fact, you are still doing that. I find this very frustrating and frankly I'm close to giving up on this discussion out of pure frustration with how you keep ignoring what I am saying. Also, you again repeat your old argument. Are you a parrot???? Just to be clear: I'm not defending a purely naturalistic worldview here. That is a separate discussion. I am trying to focus on one specific point. After we have figured out that issue, we can move on to (for example) debating evolution itself. The only thing I am saying, and have been saying again and again, and which you haven't disproven, is that the truth of evolution can be scientifically debated without having to answer the question of whether abiogenesis occurred. Evolution can have happened after a deity created life. I'm not saying one did, I'm just saying it is possible to debate such a possibility. In fact, there are lots of Christians who believe that God created the first life and then guided evolution in such a way that humans eventually came about. It is not my view, but it is a view that is logically consistent. Also, your mentioning of your "evidence" against evolution means that you are currently trying to have such the debate which you have been saying is not possible. If you can agree with me on this point, we can then go on to debate (for example) evolution itself. If you can't agree with this point, I must come to the conclusion that you don't really understand what I have been trying to say again and again. If you don't really understand me, just say so, because it certainly seems that way. Please don't hide behind changing the topic or saying the same thing again and again. It suggests that you can't really focus on debating a single topic.






 Diedert Spijkerboer  you said ' Again, you start making all sorts of different claims which confuse the discussion. Please stop doing that. As I said before, I am not going to discuss several different things at the same time. '


 i am trying to disprove evolution . evolution is at the heart of naturalist worldview i am talking about the wide scope of things while you want to narrow scope to evolution alone . evolution was the starting point then came the big bang theory came and expanded the naturalist world view . so i believe if i take out the foundation the whole naturalist worldview will collapse which is contrary to creationist world view. so when we talk about creation vs evolution its the biblical worldview vs the naturalist worldviews to me this spiritual warfare . inequalities vs equalities (for there are ultimatly 2 doctrines GOD's TRUTH vs the LIE OF SATAN (creation corruption of the truth (GODS LAW) like the pharisee traditions of men which twisted it )




. i wrote a whole thesis about this there is the truth that comes from GOD and corruption of that TRUTH .




you said ' Also, you again repeat your old argument. Are you a parrot???? Just to be clear: I'm not defending a purely naturalistic worldview here. That is a separate discussion. I am trying to focus on one specific point. After we have figured out that issue, we can move on to (for example) debating evolution itself. '




there is only two narratives creation or naturalism . a omnipotent , omniscience , omnibenovlanet , life in himself (self suffcient ) being created the cosmo and the earth in 7 actual days . then lucifer posed the question of equality between creation and creator is there equalitty between creation and creator ( also known as gender equality)? Are there natures the same and are equal ? is creation femmine nature possing of all postive attributes as like GOD ? . ya see lucifer reason was over come by his emotion and based on emotion not truth which is GOD's word he saw his beuaty and began to see his beauty rival that of GOD and came to believe that he was equal a lie based on emotion . a lie a diviation from the truth of GOD and twisted it seeing good as evil and evil as good believing the unequal relationshio between creation and creator are equal and seeing the unequal relationship between him and GOD not as his father his Shepard( a mutually beneficial relationship cooperative relationship) but as a oppressor and that creation is oppressed oppressor dynamic thinking he was correcting a wrong and doing a good thing but in reality was doing evil he thought GOD was oppressing him when in reality he was sustaining him but Lucifer wanted GOD to give up authority to allow him to rule in GOD place disregarding the fact GOD was sustaining him and gave him all the good things that made him think he was equal to GOD .. so LORD GOD was attacked by lucifer so GOD relinquished responsibility for him and Lucifer and his angels who joined his cause came down to the earth and the very choice the angels were given was given to us and same temptation to autonomony instead of subordinate to GOD and Adam . satan tempted eve and she gave in to temptation sin and lead Adam to sin . How GOD ordained the relationship the man love the woman and she obey him . Eve rebelling against Adam denied Adam of his authority which is compensation for his budren of responsibility where the relationship turned from cooperative relation of mutual interest to that self interest where they fight for domiance over each other violating the heart of GOD's law . You shall love the lORD GOD with all heart soul and strength and love other as yourself what was natural to us to do but we inverted the law which was in us when we rebelled . So now two contrary forces are in us the law of GOD and law of the flesh the inversion of the law of GOD .


The the KINGDOM of darkness the inversion of the kingdom of GOD was established on the earth . Lucifer the temrory ruler of the earth until GOD takes back the earth .






created being such as humans, animals ,angels are created being they cannot exists outside of relationship with GOD or they will die . as like the relationship between GOD and creation is described as between a man and woman or parent and child .

How the relationship between the parent and child or man and woman work.

woman are to submit to the authority (obey to hear and do his commands ) of there husband and men love ( authority and responsibility over her ) your wife for cooperation between men and woman occurs when they respect each others role a man has authority and responsibility for te woman the woman obeys her husbands commands she does as she is told .anyway this cooperation and both mutually beneficial from this but when you try to make woman and men equal in which both are fundamentally unequal it turns to oppressors oppressed relationship a relationship of competition from serving each other to serving yourself and either the man or the woman will be oppressed .if the man has responsibility and not authority she is oppressing him and him oppresd if he authority but no responsibility he is oppressing her . that is why equality between men and woman is satanic because it is toxic producing a relationship from cooperation to comepetion and one lives richly while the other suffers but both are miserable . The relationship shown between adam and eve Is symbolic of relation between GOD and creation he loves us and creation obeys him os when they disobeyed GOD and deviated from what GOD had ordained the relationship between men and woman so as adam and eve deviated from GOD will they rebelled against GOD as eve against adam . This is what broke the relationship between GOD and creation. So that is why LORD GOD serperated himself from us at the garden because if he remained he would remanin in a toxic relationship and he rremoved himself for he will not be oppressed or opress so we were seprated and because LORD GOD is incorruptable he cannot remain for he cannot go againts his nature and allow himself eithet to be a opressorr or oppressed hencforth seperation and as he gave life so he shall take it away as you have rejected him so he will in turn reject you .

in the garden GOD created woman for the man she is made to have relationship with him and if she defies her purpose ( role in the relationship ) it breaks the relationship and separation will occur so from nothingness she comes from nothing she and she returns to nothing that is what should have happened in the garden Adam to reject eve and she would have been destroyed and him saved as she rebelled . For she is to obey Adam as unto the LORD GOD but she rebelled against GOD and Adam and this she broke her relationship with GOD . For creations obeys ( hear and does his commands ) GOD and GOD loves ( authority and responsibility )his creation .

Satan lie is a lie of equality . Lucifer doctrine at a heart of it is of equality between God and creation their natures are the same
he rejected the knowledge of GOD and acted based on his emotion not truth he went against the feminine nature ( dependent ( not self sufficient ) , limited knowledge , limited power etc ) of creation which absence of positive attributes of the creator masculine nature ( life in himself (self sufficient , omniscient , omnipresence , omnipotent etc ) GOD , .

when you rebel what GOD has ordained you have rejected GOD authority and neither will he responsible and separation occurs and as he was sustaining us we fall in to desoulation and die . This is cause of the fall .

The wraith of GOD is due on us along with satan for his rebellion and by drawing us to conflict he has extended his life but also rule over the earth . Him and his angels are doomed but adam and eve were given a promises from GOD to reconcile them to him by sparing them the wraith due on to them by slaying a lamb and going back into good standing with GOD and eternal life with GOD in kingdom of GOD .

. the absence if creation 7 days

so to repeat YOU SAID ' Also, you again repeat your old argument. Are you a parrot???? Just to be clear: I'm not defending a purely naturalistic worldview here. That is a separate discussion. I am trying to focus on one specific point. After we have figured out that issue, we can move on to (for example) debating evolution itself. The only thing I am saying, and have been saying again and again, and which you haven't disproven, is that the truth of evolution can be scientifically debated without having to answer the question of whether abiogenesis occurred. Evolution can have happened after a deity created life. I'm not saying one did, I'm just saying it is possible to debate such a possibility. In fact, there are lots of Christians who believe that God created the first life and then guided evolution in such a way that humans eventually came about. It is not my view, but it is a view that is logically consistent. '


there cannot be compromise between creationism and evolution simple as that if LORD GOD doctrine is true you do not lean on you own understanding but only trust his word . For GOD masculine nature is fundamentally opposite of creation ( humans , angels , animals )so as creation has limted knowledge while GOD knowledge is unlimited . Can a 5 $ calculator do the immesurable computation of of $1 trillion super computer ? . no it can't .so we trust the biblical account as written and what was spoken by GOD . secondly LORD GOD is omnipotent and omniscience he merely commands and it occurs as with cosmos . so creating physical bodies is nothing and breath the breath of life into is bring all things to life thats how garden and all things with the breath of life came to be . Then the relationship of unequals is broken and need to reconcile it via Christ the whole Christian narrative collapses without creation and creator being unequal and trying to make equal two unequal this broke that relationship. So without it there is no broken relationship . The broken relationship it did not bring death and misery but has always exsited why do we need a sacrifice to statify the wraith of GOD so we can be reconciled to GOD ? . so GOD is not a omnibenovlant being but is corruptible and equal to creation or we are self sustained and always exsitsed . So it is either one of the two because either we ourseleves created and are center of universe as GOD or we are not and he Is fundementally ooposite of us and he created the world in 7 days and sinned and need christ to reconcile us on to GOD to eternity ..


anyway if we equal to GOD we would self sufficent as GOD .

John 5:24-29 King James Version (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



this is not true we are dying and the world is agony so clearly we are not so why is their life to begin with if the whole world is dying lncluding us ? And the whole cosmos is heading to heat death ? . so if we are self sustained be would not be dying but if there is life on here on this planet . there must be source someone must have it and gave us life and sustained us and now we are not being sutained by him and fallen In desolation .so if that is case christ will remove reconcile us via christ the wraith of GOD goes on christ and right we inheirt through faith in JESUS and from the faith comes forth works being christ like and as jacob imited esau and inheirted the right we christian imiate christ we inheirt the right . GOD will be our father we will love us he has authoirty over us and is responsible and we obey him . Being in relationship with him on to eternity . So without rebellion in the garden there is not need for christ to reconcile us to GOD . If that was the case we would content eating drinking forncation but we are not so our purpose is beyond and that is to be in relationship with GOD on to eternity as eve was intended to be inrelationship with GOD forever ..